For the past year or so, I’ve been using and enjoying the search engine Kagi. Its search results are…fine, no worse than others, and it’s ad-free, stated privacy as a primary goal, and seemed to have a better ethical sense than its competitors.
Or so I hoped.
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Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •Kagi recently started using some services provided by Brave, a company run by immensely objectionable people. Kagi community members rightly raised concerns about this.
I was curious to see Kagi’s response. This is a tricky question that requires a thoughtful, careful response. Their response would be telling: not just about the question of Brave, but about their general ethical outlook.
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Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •I’m sympathetic to Kagi’s dilemma. Brave may well provide useful services to them. And it is impossible to completely avoid engaging with people and companies who do harm in the world; that is our reality.
We can’t always disengage. What we •can• do, at a bare minimum, is think carefully about how we engage, and make wise decisions (as businesses and as individuals) that take into account our indirect impact on the world.
Again, these community concerns merit a thoughtful response.
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Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •What I found was _not_ a thoughtful, careful response. What I found was the founder of Kagi saying:
“Politics finding its way into tech is one of the reason we do not have innovation any more.”
kagifeedback.org/d/2808-recons…
Well shit. That is the reddest of red flags.
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Reconsider your partnership with Brave - Kagi Feedback
kagifeedback.orgPaul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •My dude, politics were deeply intertwined with tech long before I wrote my first line of code back in 1982. You don’t get to opt out. That choice isn’t even on the table. You interact with humans, you interact with politics.
Vlad’s post is a historically ignorant, pants-on-head-stupid answer to a serious question. When I read it, I hear, “We’re not ethically mature enough to think about our social responsibility, so we’ve given ourselves permission to take no responsibility at all.”
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teilten dies erneut
scy und Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 haben dies geteilt.
Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •I mean, at •best• that’s what I hear. At worst, I suspect that Kagi’s leadership is sympathetic to (or fully in bed with) the right-wing politics of Brave, and is using a claim of being apolitical as cover for their own politics. That would be par for the course when somebody gives this sort of “I’m staying out of politics” excuse for their politically charged actions.
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Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •Which is it? Doesn’t matter.
When I give a company access to all of my searches, I’m giving them an •extraordinary• degree of trust. Earning that trust from me requires a keen ethical awareness, and a sense of responsibility that never shrinks into the shadows and says “Not our problem! Not our responsibility!” when market forces raise ethical questions.
I want a company with a moral compass and a spine.
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Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •I want to know that the people at a search company believe that my ethical concerns are their concerns, that they view social responsibility as their responsibility, and that they won’t duck under a rock and make expedient excuses for themselves.
Who is that company? Not Google. Not Microsoft.
I’d hoped it might be Kagi.
Nope.
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Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •Search is a wasteland right now. Alas. And there are no good choices.
But look, if I’m going to •pay• a company money for search, it needs to be a company run by ethically mature people. If and when Kagi is run by such people, maybe I’ll give that paid plan another go. For now, well, maybe these childish people will blunder their way to maturity and maybe they’ll just blunder, but either way, they won’t be doing it on my dime.
/end
Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •What's most disappointing here is the lack of seeing how this clashes with #Kagi 's supposed mission of "humanizing the web".
You can't do that while pretending ethics aren't part of it. Or by defending your business relationship with someone who denies basic human rights to some.
I think it'd be recoverable for Kagi if they end up revisiting the issue, but right now, I'm disappointed a.f.
Georges Danton
Als Antwort auf Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 • • •Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Georges Danton • • •Given that my deal-killing objection was not actually them using Brave’s services but rather their unwillingness to think about the underlying issues, I can’t say that this “we’ll let you cover your eyes too” response addresses my concerns at all.
Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •Kind of in agreement. However, I hope they are going to think about the issues now. It'd have been best if they had done so before, obviously ...
@kzhe
Paul Cantrell
Als Antwort auf Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷 • • •@larsmb @kzhe
What’s turned me off is the incapacity for thought. Whatever they decide about Brave now that they’re under pressure, I just don’t see a company that’s ready to play with the grown-ups.
Here’s the thing: the Brave issue is relatively minor compared to the ethical questions a search company is going to face. And they’ll often face those questions out of public sight, and free from public pressure.
Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •But I'm not sure I'm trusting others more either.
I do fully understand your points though and appreciate them. I'm just not yet sure what the truly better option is for me.
(I signed up very recently and am paid up for the month anyway, so I'll ponder until renewal)
@kzhe
A Part of Bee
Als Antwort auf Paul Cantrell • • •teilten dies erneut
Jaddy hat dies geteilt.
Paul Cantrell
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag • • •Lars Marowsky-Brée 😷
Unbekannter Ursprungsbeitrag • • •@phiofx Ohhh. Internet search as a public trust?
An org like the Sovereign Tech Fund or the Prototype Fund might actually sponsor that.
@inthehands